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Steevo

I think there should be a discussion focused like a laser beam on defining the essence ‘anti-Americanism’. What is it? Is it justified or a perverse degradation and even hatred? Is it wrong or right to be anti-American? Its certainly been trendy and easy.

I’ve noticed for a number of months now it has pretty much peaked out and maybe subsided some. People have been sounding a bit like parrots spouting the same old excuses or ‘reasons’ and maybe they’re beginning to get tired of themselves. Maybe its not as fulfilling. Blaming the Jew or Israel hasn’t lost as much luster, its still OK to be a Hamas-loving guy and girl but unfortunately that will not reach the level of satisfaction and popularity Hitler Bush and arrogant invading American baby killers has.

Maybe Europeans are just beginning to wake up, and grow up? A little self-examination never hurt as opposed to passing the buck and expecting Americans to dwell in never ending guilt, which, at this point really won’t accomplish anything more. This is nothing personal BTW toward some Brits here who have maintained a more noble-minded disposition with core values and basic honesty, not chick and down right ugly cheap with scapegoatism.

Ami

I think we are seeing some anti-Americanism scaled back due to Russia flexing its military muscle. And heavens knows, there might come a day when Europe will have a use for dumb, stupid Americans again. I think the term "hedging your bets" could aptly be applied here. Just don't mistake it for new found love and affection.

Andy

I don't think the majority of Europeans are or have been anti-American/Israel. It just happens that left-wingers tend to be vocal, vociferous and peddle the same tired cliches/lies in the (often successful) hope that some of it will stick. Angry, dogmatic shouting down often favoured over cold calm clinical reasoning.

The Rt. Hon. George Galloway MP instantly springs to mind. For a textbook example of what I mean get a load of this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DQqID5QYhzc

malcolm

More whining self pity on this blog from the usual suspects. I would think that the main reason for the improvement in French/German and American relations is that Merkel and Sarkozy are both right of centre and although not perfect from a British persepective are whole lot better than the pair of clowns they succeeded.
Why pick George Galloway as a representative of European political thought Andy?. He's the leader of a tiny party and really speaks for no one but himself.

TomTom

I don't think the majority of Europeans are or have been anti-American/Israel. It just happens that left-wingers tend to be vocal, vociferous and peddle the same tired cliches/

That's a fair assessment.

In the case of Germany it has a lot to do with Vietnam. Postwar Germany looked to the USA as virtupus in everything it was not - it was not European, it had no war guilt, it had rebuilt what it conquered, and it protected the West from the fate of Soviet Occupation.

That gave Germans a surrogate identity. Vietnam showed them the US did not fight only to liberate Germany - forgetting of course noone fought to "liberate" Germany, simply to defeat Germany....but German sensitivities preferred the thought of liberation in which all younger Germans had naturally been on the side of the Americans and against their parents and the Nazis.

Germans are idealists in youth and unworldly purists. The postwar generation had the schizophrenia of admiring anything that wasn't German; and some of the rebels (Baader Meinhof) who hated the Americans for defeating Germany and bringing consumerism to the country - they were synthesised Nazis who exuded resentment wrappen Marcusean Marxist claptrap.

The generation that sympathised with the Baader-Meinhof now runs the TV stations, the media, and the SPD...the Left.

Today is 5th September, 30th Anniversary of the kidnapping of Hanns-Martin Schleyer by the Baader-Meinhof....and the later hi-jacking of the Lufthansa plane to Mogadishu by Palestinians.....so-called "Autumn Days" when Germany was shaken to its postwar core by terrorism.

It is getting much coverage in the media - because the media controllers are reliving their youth - just as with Iraq they relived their '68 experience. These countries are in the grip of the '68 Left and they are now entering their 60s but trying to recapture their past.

That is why there seems to be Anti-Americanism...but it exists in the USA too.....Michael Moore spouts it

Simon Newman

My impression of both France and Germany is that real gut anti-Americanism is largely confined to their political-media-civil service-academic elites, as in Britain. Spain seems to have more popular anti-Americanism, possibly due to her Latin American connections.

Steevo

“More whining self pity on this blog from the usual suspects. I would think that the main reason for the improvement in French/German and American relations is that Merkel and Sarkozy are both right of centre and although not perfect from a British persepective are whole lot better than the pair of clowns they succeeded.
Why pick George Galloway as a representative of European political thought Andy?. He's the leader of a tiny party and really speaks for no one but himself.”

Ah Malcolm, I think Andy’s point is Galloway is not a representative of “European political thought”. Don’t jump to overly sensitive conclusions.

Galloway does do a hellova lot of ‘whining’ about Iraq tho, not unlike the usual suspects in here.

And if 71% in the UK want more “distant” relations with America… I wonder how that should be interpreted?

malcolm

I think the poll referred to America from a political perspective and not from America as a country.There is a big difference between being Anti American and anti Bush and his gov't. Bush is terribly unpopular in Britain and I would imagine the rest of Europe. It seems we share that feeling with most Americans themselves. The last time I looked he had the worst polling numbers achieved by any American president in more than 30 years

Steevo

I know how a percentage even remotely close to 71% "political" or othwewise would be interpreted in America if that was our sentiment towards the UK. No prolem with that one.

So, if Rudy is elected does that mean it will go down to say, 55%?

You won't have Bush anymore granted, but I bet you'd blame Santa Clause for stirring up the chimney.

atheling

Europeans leaders waking up? Maybe. But only because they're scared.

Screw Europe. Or rather, let them continue doing it to themselves.

We will never send treasure and blood for Europe again.

We've got our own problems with Islam at home which we need to uproot, and with the idiocy of the Left, it'll be all the more difficult.

Andrew

"Why pick George Galloway as a representative of European political thought Andy?. He's the leader of a tiny party and really speaks for no one but himself."

Because he and his ilk get an unduly large platform to stand on with which to spout vile anti-Semitism. You are right, he is an obscure man in charge of an obscure party and his media coverage should reflect this.

"I would think that the main reason for the improvement in French/German and American relations is that Merkel and Sarkozy are both right of centre"

...Both of whom are pro-American, so it follows that both were elected by an essentially pro-American electorate.

Andrew

"Bush is terribly unpopular in Britain and I would imagine the rest of Europe. It seems we share that feeling with most Americans themselves."

Where is your hard scientific evidence for these blanket statements? I don't mean BBC brainwashing spin, or so-called opinion polls, but hard data from credible sources.

I look forward to seeing the results of some frantic Google searches, but at least it will encourage you to back up your statements!

Simon Newman

I think there's likely to be an outpouring of pro-Americanism as soon as Bush goes; it will be much stronger if a Democrat gets elected. Bill Clinton was wildly popular. It helped that he followed German policy in the Balkans - back Croatia & Bosnia, kill Serbs, etc.

atheling

"Pro Americanism" so long as a Democrat is in power? That's hardly being "Pro American", it's merely endorsing a mirrored Eurocrat, i.e. Dhimmicrat.

Euros hate America and Americans so long as they don't reflect their own anti-Western, nihilistic, anti-Zionist, pro Islam, socialist, cult of death, leftist stances.

And that's what it's really all about, isn't it?

Simon Newman

atheling:
"Euros hate America and Americans so long as they don't reflect their own anti-Western, nihilistic, anti-Zionist, pro Islam, socialist, cult of death, leftist stances"

That's true of the elites, but much less true of the general populace. There are a few areas where Europeans genuinely don't understand America - eg gun ownership, health care - but hostility to Bush-Cheney beyond the leftist elites is more due to their incompetence - if the Iraq war had gone well, bin Laden been captured or killed, etc, then the Euro-elites would still be sneering but the populace would be ok with it.

Ami

If we elect a democrat, and someone who Europe approves of, you will LIKE us again? Gee, stupid me, I thought this was our country, and we got to make the decisions here. Europe and Europeans love a weak American president, please, Simon, go back and read what you wrote. "Bill Clinton...was wildly popular. It helped that he followed..." With "followed" being the key word. I refuse to vote for any candidate who will "follow" Europe into the abyss just to be "liked" by Europeans. Simply isn't worth it.

Ami

Isn't it amazing that a people who are completely incapable of doing anything themselves sneer at another's "incompetence." What arrogance.

atheling

"That's true of the elites, but much less true of the general populace."

Oh really? Have you talked to any of the middle class in Britain? The middle class in Britain HATE America and Americans. As a matter of fact, it's a middle class phenomenon, to be anti American. They are the ones who have been spoon fed BBC anti American propaganda since birth and been fed leftwing socialist politics throughout their education, hence capitalism and America is evil.

Which class dominates the media and academics in Britain? The middle class, not the "elites"!

malcolm

Clearly Atheling you haven't spent much time here. If you had you wouldn't spout such horsesh*t all the time.

Steevo

I have an article written in late spring about the play “Fallujah” shown in London. Our initial pullout in early 04 was a costly mistake. We went back in that fall and after much more fighting…found torture cells, bomb factories etc. That’s not what the play was about. Here’s what the Brit Economist said as it conceded it was “anti-war, anti-American”.

“The audience shuffles about his landscape while the action takes place around them. Soldiers push their way through, swaggering and malevolent; a roving stage light suddenly picks out two women in the audience as Iraqi aid workers. They weave gracefully through the crowd, telling their story, placing a hand gently on someone's shoulder.”

Yet the Economist then has the gall: “'Fallujah' can still be applauded for casting light on a shameful chapter in a disastrous war.”

Now this is the kind of depiction some Brits here have wanted to portray trying to justify their, bent.

Here’s a quote from another article with the bent of an American:

"‘Shameful’ and ‘disastrous’? This cheap sermonizing of Western elites reflects two unspoken truths: privately, no well-heeled British subject would prefer the world of beheading, gender apartheid, and Sharia law that flourished in lawless Fallujah to the legal system and audit that governs the American military. And yet most understand that their own professional advancement, psychological well-being, and political acceptance come from praising the former and damning the latter. Thus the war to establish democracy to replace Saddam Hussein's genocidal rule must be reduced to ‘swaggering Americans’ threatening female ‘Iraqi aid workers.’"


Simon Newman

Ami:
"I thought this was our country, and we got to make the decisions here..."

I'm not telling you who to vote for! I was just talking about how Europeans will react. Most Europeans probably want Clinton or Obama elected, doesn't mean I agree.

Personally if I were American I'd probably be supporting Ron Paul for President, and no Europeans don't like or understand his position because he's a genuine Constitutionalist who among other things would likely withdraw the US defense shield from Europe and force Europe to face reality and look to her own defenses for the first time since WW2. I think this cold shower would ultimately be in Europe's best interests, but it certainly wouldn't be popular with European govts of right or left, who have grown used to minimal defense spending paying for lavish welfare states.

BTW my wife is an American citizen (as my baby son will be, once we get the paperwork sorted) and she will be voting in the 2008 election, we'll probably be moving to the USA in a few years, so I'm not just speaking as a foreigner.

Simon Newman

atheling:
"Oh really? Have you talked to any of the middle class in Britain? The middle class in Britain HATE America and Americans"

The 'lumpen intelligentsia' of the civil service, state education sector are very left-wing pretty anti-American, agreed. My American wife works in that area and got some vicious anti-American comments directed her at the start of the Iraq war, stuff that would have been actionable had she been black, Jewish etc.

The private sector middle class however generally is not. No one likes the current US administration, but it's not exactly popular in the US either.

atheling

Simon:

71% of the British want more distance between Downing Street and DC. Is that 71% only working and upper class? I was in Britain during Clinton's administration and I clearly experienced anti Americanism there from university students and journalists, the majority of whom are middle class.

Tell me, are the majority of Britons who are in the media and academia upper class? Or are they working class? Doesn't make sense, does it? Anti Americanism, which is taught and propagated by British media and educational system, ARE mostly of the middle class!

But then, you have people like malcolm (with a little m) who are a perfect example of the British educational system: leftist, anti American, unable to debate with any substance (or class for that matter), and who can only say rude remarks when he is backed into a corner. Such courage.

Now, malcolm, this is your cue to say something insulting and then run away. That's your M.O., isn't it? Of course, it's easy to do in an anonymous forum. I bet you won't be doing that to your Wahabbi masters.

atheling

BTW, I am acquainted with a British ex pat who went to uni to study "media studies". He said that all he learned was Marxism.

mamapajamas

Simon... you're probably right. However, I would like to point out one of the most unpopular presidents in US history while he was in office... Abraham Lincoln.

My point is that current polling numbers don't have much to do with anything that matters in the long run. It's what we think 20 or 30 years down the road that will ultimately matter.

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