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Henry Mayhew - Ukipper

What a one-sided critique even for CH. You could dredge up anti-IRA interrogations from the early Seventies that would curdle the blood. What do you think the Israelis get up to? I can't even give a factual description on this site because I will be called a Jew-hater.

Do you want to carry on buying their oil (25% of world stocks), or don't you? Perhaps you would like to invade Arabia, kill the locals, and introduce Christianity and democracy.

Conservative Home articles and comments on the Middle East are not particularly good.

Anyway, I am looking forward to a posh Saudi British reception tomorrow evening and an up-market conference and chin-wag on Wednesday. I doubt I'll be seeing any of you there, because this isn't really your thing, is it?

I'll be going by bicycle.


I am looking forward to a posh Saudi British reception tomorrow evening and an up-market conference and chin-wag on Wednesday.

Congratulations on undermining your own argument so exquisitely.


The West (except probably the Scandanavian Nations) has absolutely no business preaching morality around the World.

The major difference between Saudi Arabia and Iran is that the rulers of Saudi Arabia are pro-West. Saudi Arabia is the engine room of radical Islam (Go to Mosques all over the World and read Wahabbist literature). Women are stoned to death for adultery, Women cannot vote (they are not even allowed to drive).

Yet Government after Government (Labour, Conservative, Republican and Democrat) fawn over these despots for the sake of cheap oil and easy money (anyone remember the Al Yamamah deal?).

Are we foolish enough to believe that the Arab Street (and indeed the World) does not grasp what is going on?

One of the reasons why the rest of the World is opting for Chinese finance is because:
1. It comes with no strings attached.
2. The Chinese make no pretense about being 'holier than thou'.
3. The World is getting tired of moralising Western BS.

The reason why the West has never stood up for non-muslim minorities in the Arab World is because of 'bootlicking' relationship with the Saudis. The West generally looks the other way when Christians in Africa are murdered by Islamic thugs, because these Islamic thugs are influenced and supported by Saudi Arabia.

(Who is ultimately behind the drive for the Islamisation of Europe and Africa - trust me it is not Iran!).

I will eat my hat the day ANY western leader seriously calls Saudi to task for:
1. Lack of religious freedom.
2. The rights of women.


Just to add, I am not suprised that Iranian students are studying nuclear physics in Britain.

The unpleasant truth is that Physics, Chemistry (and Science) departments are closing all over Britain. There are very few British students opting to study these courses at Post Graduate level.

I studied Telecommunications Engineering (PG level) and there was not a single British student in my class. British Universities now depend HEAVILY on Chinese students for funding (most British Universities are cash strapped). They will GRAB anyone who is qualified and can provide the cash.

If I was British I would not feel so optimistic about the future of my country:

1. The scientific base is withering, most post graduate science students are foreign nationals (Chinese, Greeks, Pakistani and Indians). Britain is not America with a Silicon valley to support these talented people. They tend to return home or move over to America.

Where will the next generation of British scientists come from? (Don't let the present Nobel prizes fool you - Nobels are awarded to men in their fifties and sixties).

2. The nation is going to get smaller. Scotland is going to leave the Union - sooner or later. (The Conservatives and Alex Salmond are working very hard to speed up the process). Wales will follow suit.

Will 'Little England' be able to stand up to France and Germany when the inevitable occurs.

Ash Faulkner

I don't like the state visit; we shouldn't afford that to any nation like Saudi Arabia (or, for that matter, China). However, we absolutely should talk to the Saudi Government - in particular this present king. Isolating Saudi Arabia would only make things worse. We talked to the Soviet Union, so we can and should talk to them. Our foreign policy should be based on pragmatic idealism: we should not dismiss the crimes of the Saudi state, but we should use whatever influence we can to try and guide them in a better direction.

Daniel kawczynski MP

What utter rubbish.I attended the Third Meeting of the UK-Saudi Two Kingdom's Dialogue today where we had an excellent presentation by young people from both countries saying how they are working together to get a better understanding of eachother's culture. Most of the liberal elite in this country who complain about Saudi have never even visited it.

Daniel Kawczynski MP


I have never visited Saudi, but I know the case of a British man who was falsely accused of terrorism by Saudi officials, tortured and sentenced to death.

If he was accused by Iran, all hell would have been let lose, but since it is Saudi - let sleeping dogs lie.

If we can talk to Saudi, why not Iran, Cuba or even Burma? What is the criteria, who sets the standards? What exactly do we stand for - universal principles or narrow self interest?

Kissinger and Nixon never claimed to be super righteous and upright (unlike Blair and Bush). I can live with that.

What I cannot live with is this false sense of 'moral superiority'. Let's go back to realpolitik and stop this contradictory nonsense.

Tim Montgomerie

Who does Daniel Kawczynski MP think he is kidding?

All sorts of formal exchange programmes existed between the west and the USSR during the Cold War. They were PR exercises. I don't know the details of the "Dialogue" he refers to but they do nothing to counter the facts about Saudi Arabia's intolerance of other faiths and their subsidy of extremist ideologies.

Adam in London

My God Daniel are you seriously implying that all is actually sweetness and light in Saudi Arabia? That it doesn't require massive reform? That it's record on religious minorities, political opposition, sponsoring of Wahhabist Islamism, women, gays, etc. isn't appalling?

The Saudi Kingdom is a cesspit in dire need of reform. That is what we want to see happen - the start of a reform process seems to be being nurtured in places in Morrocco, UAE and Kuwait. We want to see Saudi on a similar path. That's why we need to keep doing things like state visits to keep the House of Saud on side for this. What we don't want to see is a full-on Wahhabist revolutionary state.

So, we sup with the devil, but we don't forget that it's the devil we're supping with.


Hear hear, Adam. It's notable that the two people on this thread defending the House of Saud have both enjoyed its hospitality! How depressingly typical.

Henry Mayhew - Ukipper

CH is not "not particularly good" on the Middle East, as I erroneously posted. Apologies. It is utter rubbish.

When is Ben Rogers going to address himself to the topic? :)
Or Victoria Kluk again? :(

I know I am not strong enough for Robert Halfon and the "Conservative Friends of Israel", so please don't do that. No! No more!

Malcolm Dunn

I tried to defend you yesterday Henry as I have never seen any anti Semitic comments in your numerous posts on CH.I don't understand why you are attacking the work of Robert Halfon or Ben Rogers. Have I made a mistake?


Henry appears to be an Arabist at heart rather than at head- he hasn't rebuffed anything with substance yet...

Henry Mayhew

Yep, thanks for that. It is for you to make up your mind as to whether you made a mistake.

I am wearied by the export version of evangelical conservatism and strongly oppose the oppressive Zionist regime.

I disagree with the "Conservative Friends of Israel" approach of Mr Halfon, strongly dislike Ms Kluk's article on the topic, and am really saddened by ConservativeHome's editorial line. I admire Islam and Arab culture. I would like to see the Holy Land become an international mandate area, and believe that is possible if guarantees are given to the Jewish and Arab people of Palestine for their security.

Edwin Montagu (Secretary of State for India 1917-1922) was excellent on this topic. Yes, he was Jewish. http://www.manfamily.org/Edwin%20Montagu%20and%20Zionism%201917.htm

I, and we, must not be afraid of criticism and slander if we are to arrive at the difficult truths that make politics worthwhile. I, and we, must believe that all debate is good. I, and we, must use the experience of the Middle East that some of us have to correct the ignorance of others. An ignorance fostered and distorted by the agents of propaganda of the Zionist regime, established and maintained by guile and force over local arabs disarmed by the British.

This state is a racially-based anachronism that should dissolve itself for the public good - I believe it will and that we should help this to occur by offering security guarantees and subsequent financial investment and compensation (in association with Gulf Arab states) as soon as possible.

What is your vision? I am genuinely interested. More force? More injustice? More looking the other way? That is unacceptable to me.

Henry Mayhew

Just to be clear - I disagree with the political stance of some articles I have read here on Conservative Home on the subject of the Middle East - I have no other knowledge of the political beliefs or work of the writers I mention, and make no observation on them. I am confident we would agree on many issues.


People claim to believe in woman's rights, no persecution of religious minorities, gays, people of different race, color, etc. Yet totalitarian Left-wing regimes are praised for their 'good' and Islamic intolerance and fascism is to be understood and viewed as a kind of victim. Underlying much of this reasoning... the West is at fault. There's some deep-seeded hatred that's been expressed in this forum on many occasions and unfortunately, reflecting that of many outside this forum. Lack of depth, callous emotionalism and denial or gross distortions of reality.

There is plenty to correct at home, rightfully so, but many who've reaped the fruits of freedom are not capable of self-examination. There should never be any excuse, justification or turning a blind eye to regimes and peoples who without hesitation justify the denial of fundamental human rights.

In this case, any people who empower others or themselves to kill as many innocents as possible.

Malcolm Dunn

Then I think we disagree Henry. I do support the right of Israel to exist in peace and also to take action when attacked. On the whole I have admired the left wing leaders of Israel much more than their right wing. Rabin and Meir are particular heroes of mine whereas Begin,Sharon and now Olmert have led Israel into disastrous conflicts which have brought Israel nothing but grief.
I do think Tim is wrong on the house of Saud. As oppresive as a regime as it undoubtedly is it could be a lot worse. Saudi Arabia has never sought to gain territory from anyone else and nor as far as I'm aware has it indulged in state terrorism as Iran has.
Sadly I think Britain needs friendly relations with Saudi Arabia to a much greater extent than Saudi Arabia needs us.


Henry, I don't remember seeing you before yesterday. You entered a discussion with a first post reaping with derogatory sarcasm. You continued to spiral downhill into a pathetic insulting tit for tat. That's the first thread I've seen locked.

You made it a point after your forum name to include "closet racist".

In your sympathies, judgments and condemnations here it doesn't appear to me you plan on changing much other than when being called on your words, you'll be doing some explaining to clarify. I suspect, clarify a lot.

Actually I agree with much of Malcolm. I don't recall anyone at least in the recent past play the "Zionist" evil card sympathizing with those surrounding the Jewish people who clearly would have their annihilation.

Unlike your sympathies I'm not for pegging the House of Saud the enemy but that's with regards to diplomacy, needless to say the display at the Mall and Palace leave a lot to be desired. On this side of the ocean I despise a lot of the Bush Administration's praise and accommodations. The fact is tho if they fall it could be an explosive disaster nobody there but hard-line sharia clerics and followers could benefit from. The consequences into the surrounding states, could be terribly disastrous. This is a fine line western leaders have to walk as its a fine line with the family in power. Our problem it seems to me, is the foolishness if not outright stupidity in giving them honor due leaders of free nations. These meetings should be kept as low key as possible and I would hope it could be made clear their involvement and responsibility for terrorism does not make them a true ally or friend.


One can only wonder what Edwin Montagu's opinion might have been after the holocaust. He died too soon to see the horror.

Montagu has other admirers like Jeff Rense: http://www.rense.com/general69/makf.htm. It's the same article Henry posted above. Here is Mr. Rense's website address: http://www.rense.com/

Interesting, dubious company to keep I must say. Choice material. Here's a link from Mr. Rense's site, a fan of Montagu, a sadly apologetic Jew, "The Root Problem: Illuminati or Jews?" by Henry Makow: http://www.rense.com/general78/root.htm

Oh, yes.... those "Arabists", fantasizing about Lawrence of Arabia dressed in full garb, riding horses, swinging swords, lopping of limbs and fulfilling their mysogynistic wet dreams.

Perhaps our political leaders must walk a tight rope dealing with the Sauds, but we should refuse to allow their influence via mosques and schools in our countries. It is more prevalent in the US than many are aware. There is no reason to tolerate this type of religious influence when it is not reciprocated by the Sauds. But there we are.


An admirer of Islam and Arab culture?

Gee, why don't you produce a Muslim version of Punch and Judy?

You can rename Punch "Omar", and have him beat the crap out of Judy, (let's rename her "Ghayda" and ensure she's wearing her abaya and hijab) for burning the lamb.

Why, you could have done that for your "posh" visit with your Wahhabi masters! What fun!


What happened Malcolm?

Went to bed with glamor girl and woke up with a hag?



"Perhaps our political leaders must walk a tight rope dealing with the Sauds, but we should refuse to allow their influence via mosques and schools in our countries. It is more prevalent in the US than many are aware."

Amen. Let's get off foreign oil dependency and cramp those Saudi billionaire scums who use it to fund our killers.

Their appalling abuse of women, their intolerance towards other religions, their routine murder of gays (when they aren't secretly using pretty Euro gayboys for their own perversions), and their support for human trafficking makes their culture and religion an abomination to any decent society.

The only true democracy in the Middle East is Israel - hence, they are the only ME nation who deserves Western support.

Arab culture and Islam... a LOT to admire

Adam in London

The question is what would we like to see in Saudi, and how do we best help bring that about?

Personally I'd like to see a gradual reform process, like we observe in Morocco or Kuwait. To do that you need the House of Saud firmly on side, flattered, and treated as one of the boys - the reforms become almost an act of honour out of a desire to 'fit in' as a 'grown up' nation. I'd also like to see continued sharing of intelligence, continued engagement in Israel-Palestine peace process, and Saudi involvement as a counterbalance to Iran's hegemonic influence in the region. Again this requires us to be rather chummy with the House of Saud.

What are the alternatives? We could either push hard for big reforms now or we could simpy withdraw support. What would the results be? If we held full elections in a democratic Saudi tomorrow, the winners would be Wahhabist Islamists who make the Iranian Supreme Council and the Taliban look like a meeting the General Synod of the Church of England. If we allowed the House of Saud to fall, those Wahhabist Islamists get into power via their own dictatorship. Clearly the alternatives are the road to disaster.

We need to look to Iraq and remember that our difficulties arose in large part because we failed to think about the country we were dealing with.

Henry Mayhew

Look, I am not anti-Jewish! I am saddened that Jewish culture has become confused with Zionism to a large extent, and that this has fuelled a negative view of the great religion of Judaism in many people. The propaganda put out by Israel over 60 years has been very unhelpful to us in the West understanding all the issues. I do NOT imply that Conservative Home or any of its contributors put out this propaganda - I merely disagree with their point of view and think it important to say so.

I am anti- or non-Zionist, if you prefer, as were, I believe, the majority of British jews at the beginning of the 20th Century. Sir Edwin Montagu was a very great man who was concerned for the rights of the indigenous arab population of Palestine as well as for his British Jewish nationalism. I agree with his stance. Of course, understandably, the immense tragedy of the Holocaust, which this nation combatted extremely courageously gave an enormous spur to Zionism. I do NOT wish ill on any jews in Palestine. Believe it or not, nor do very many arabs. They just want to see justice. Believe it or not, King Abdullah's 2002 peace plan really is a sensible move towards peace. How many of you who criticise him even know of it? Surely we are all in favour of peace and justice?

I hope that the state of Israel, as a militaristic Zionist entity, can be seen to have been a historic mistake which needs to be resolved by the Israeli people themselves. I believe that at some point, the sooner the better, they will decide to reform radically the government and entire philosophy of the state. A similar process is taking place in Northern Ireland and South Africa. What is so wrong with that? What is so wrong with pointing out to those who criticise Saudi Arabia that other ideologies and governments have behaved extremely badly? I do not agree with criticising Saudi Arabia as strongly as the article does while being a staunch supporter of the state of Israel as currently formed. That does not seem to me to be fair.

I am sorry that in my annoyance at the way the article was written and my irritation at the general stance of Conservative Home on this topic I was more strident than would perhaps have been useful. Sorry.


There can be no political reform in Saudi Arabia so long as they are Muslim. And try to separate the two.

Islam is inherently totalitarian. It is not merely a religion. It's a way of life. For crying out loud, they have 72 different rules about wiping your arse!

Islam abuses women. Women are routinely beaten, denied basic human rights (like due process in a court of law), married and divorced like chattel, discarded at the whim of their husbands (or owners, I should say), subject to the humiliation of polygamy, covered like hefty garbage bags, and sexually molested when they are as young as NINE YEARS OLD. THIS IS SANCTIONED BY ISLAM BECAUSE THE PROPHET MOHAMMED HIMSELF MARRIED A SIX YEAR OLD CHILD AND CONSUMMATED HIS MARRIAGE WITH HER WHEN SHE WAS NINE!!!

Can any Westerner honestly say that this is GOOD??? Can any Westerner truthfully state that this is ADMIRABLE???

There cannot be any "reform" in Saudi Arabia so long as they are Muslim. Islam is a cruel and vicious religion.

There. I've said it. Now, arrest me for it. Oops, I forgot, I'm not in Britain, thank God...

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